Timeline for Did Jesus live?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
48 events
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| Oct 19, 2022 at 16:37 | comment | added | JamieB | I've always felt that Tacitus was strong evidence. Even a staunch atheist must admit that Christianity probably had a founder, and probably started somewhere, and it would reasonably follow that the founder was someone named Jesus and/or Christ [Christus]. The atheist may assume this man was entirely a fraud, did nothing claimed in the Bible, but we do at least have evidence that this founder, who indeed went by the name of Christus, was real. It's like saying "I disagree with Darwinism therefore Darwin didn't exist." It can get a bit silly. | |
| S May 21, 2022 at 22:01 | history | suggested | zdimension | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
correct typo (corss → cross)
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| May 21, 2022 at 17:44 | review | Suggested edits | |||
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| Jan 27, 2021 at 14:31 | comment | added | user4216 | -1 because this answer quotes the longer passage from Josephus that is an obvious Christian interpolation, rather than the much shorter passage that is believed to be authentic (Antiquities, book 20, ch. 9). | |
| Jul 2, 2019 at 15:27 | comment | added | emanresu | downvoted for failing to mention the widespread peer reviewed case arguing that the quoted text from Josephus is an (obvious) fraud. Even if you think it is authentic you should mention that it is seriously challenged by peer reviewed literature. | |
| S Jan 11, 2014 at 7:55 | history | suggested | Scooter | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Add dates to the writings mentioned.
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| Jan 11, 2014 at 5:52 | review | Suggested edits | |||
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| Oct 13, 2013 at 11:10 | comment | added | Scooter | If they talked about Christians later that doesn't appear to be significant in verifying they are not believing a myth. Their is some ancient Christian statements defending their belief (implying disbelievers). Also, the church had control of much of ancient literature - and ancient people. Calling Christians fools or liars would have been hazardous to the life of the document, and the author. | |
| Oct 13, 2013 at 11:01 | comment | added | Scooter | Josephus did not live within the alleged lifetime of Jesus. Josephus was also Jewish, so it is highly unlikely that he would refer to him as rising from the dead and say "if it be lawful to call him a man". Tacitus also did not live at the alleged time of Jesus. There are no Roman letters about Christians near the time of the alleged life of Jesus. If they talked about Christians later that doesn't appear to be significant as we know there are Christians. The reference to biblical quotes goes against the | |
| Mar 21, 2013 at 13:43 | comment | added | 0xC0000022L | ... for all we know people also believed in Zeus and a myriad of other gods and goddesses. They believed that the Earth was flat and that there was a place called Atlantis. While there are hints that the core of the legend of Atlantis is true, it doesn't mean the inhabitants were called Atlantians nor that many other traits attributed to them hold true. The same for other legends ... | |
| Mar 21, 2013 at 13:38 | comment | added | 0xC0000022L | -1: comments in Roman letter about the willingness of many Christians to be killed rather than change their beliefs - willingness of [insert name for adherents to religion] to be killed does not prove the existence of someone or that, if that someone lived his/her doings were what legends say. Even Christian scholars agree that the accounts of Jesus' life (the gospels) were written long after the alleged death of the historical Jesus (assuming there was one). All that in a time when the human life expectancy was much slower. | |
| Mar 27, 2012 at 22:36 | comment | added | Tacroy | -1: This is a very poor answer. The only actual sources are the Testimonium Flavianum, which was almost certainly a later Christian interpolation; and an equally uncritical quote from Tacitus, who was essentially relating the Christian version of things - I mean, it's like an Elvis fan telling a historian that Elvis was totally working at this one truck stop. The rest of it is just unsupported speculation and conjecture. There's a good case to be made here, you're just not making it. | |
| Nov 15, 2011 at 5:24 | comment | added | user4951 | @BCooksey, you said about dead sea scrolls prophecying about Jesus, can I see source? | |
| Oct 15, 2011 at 11:58 | comment | added | user unknown | Wow, what a chat! I have a new answer, which tackles especially Tacitus and Flavius Josephus. | |
| S Jun 17, 2011 at 15:06 | history | suggested | badp | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Sigh; reapplying formatting
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| Jun 17, 2011 at 15:05 | review | Suggested edits | |||
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| Apr 16, 2011 at 15:16 | comment | added | Django Reinhardt | How about putting some dates next to those texts? | |
| Apr 6, 2011 at 21:28 | vote | accept | Monkey Tuesday | ||
| Apr 1, 2011 at 21:35 | comment | added | Lagerbaer | @BCooksey No. This is the common story given in the gospel. Tacitus reciting this story is not evidence. Evidence for this judicial sentence would be the proper court documents. I don't know to what extent Romans kept those for non-Roman citizens, though. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 17:03 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | @Lagerbaer From the quote above, Tacitus says "Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate..." Seems to be a pretty direct statement about existence since it records a judicial sentence to death carried out against him. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 16:04 | comment | added | Lagerbaer | Please note that Flavius and Taciturs merely attest that the Jewish sects of Christians did indeed exist. This can not count as evidence to the existence of Jesus itself. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 9:08 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | @BCooksey.Well, since this site is about answers,and not discussion, we should see how your answer plays out against what comes in. That is, before this becomes an infinite thread. I feel you have defended your position well,if you feel it could be done better, then edit. I must admit, so far you have made a surprisingly compelling argument.But then again, we can only wait and see what is offered to the contrary. Cheers. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 9:05 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | Added a link to chapter 9 ofGary Habernas' book "The Historical Jesus" entitled "Chapter IX - Ancient Non-Christian Sources" which lists a number of external evidences. I found it through Lee Strobel's material. Habermas has extensive endnotes references in the chapter, but they are not on the web page - I would expect them to be in the actual book. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 9:02 | history | edited | BrianCooksey | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
Added reference to Gary Habermas' book chapter "The Historical Jesus"
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| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:37 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | If by confirmation, you're looking for a document assessing Josephus, I'm not sure I have a strong citation. It's been years since I was reading regularly on historic evidence w/r/t Jesus, so I'd have to dig through my bookshelf (which I will do if you would like). I considered work by Josh McDowell (e.g., Evidence that Demands a Verdict) and Lee Strobel (LeeStrobel.com). More recently, I've been in around the teaching of Dennis McCallum who's pretty careful in his research and would pitch his Josephus references if he lost conficence (search Xenos.org for Josephus for sample references). | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:35 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | Ok.This is getting a little too much into a debate WITH NO ANSWER IN SIGHT!. Unless someone starts citing specific references, we're not accomplishing anything. Let's TRY to keep it to the FACTS. Like, for instance, what about the census which required Joseph to return to Nazareth"? | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:29 | comment | added | user288 | The Bible is mostly plagiarism and compilation of the stories of the time. With inserted Jesus. Sort of how Hollywood remakes foreign masterpieces with it's own star actors. While it is possible that Jesus was real but his stories in Bible were not; we can't rely on Bible as an evidence that Jesus was real. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:26 | comment | added | user288 | @BCooksey: Tacitus quote proves that Christians existed. And that they believed in Jesus. It's not an evidence that Jesus existed. The authenticity of Testimonium Flavianum is doubtful. The rest is mere speculations. You think people wouldn't die on account of fictional person, I believe they would and they did. Just because they believed Jesus was real it didn't make him real. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:13 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | You get +1 because I didn't ask for CONVINCING evidence, and you are absolutley correct in that statement. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:11 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | @BCookey.You're doing a good job of keeping up. however, I do own 14 different versions of the bible in 5 languages. Never found Luke particularly convincing. Mostly because it's not that Luke can include confirmation of historical events, but that those writing on historical events include confirmation of Luke. Also, if you know people who have put the work into verifying Flavius, don't just mention them, cite them. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:09 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | The list is not exhautive, it's just some examples and considerations to answer if there is any evidence (not every evidence :)) Point #3 is non-evidence; Point #2 perhaps could be considered hearsay in a courtroom; I included it becuase since the sources are limited to non-Bible, the reaction of non-Bible writers to its claims says something about what people of the era thought of the claim of his existance. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 8:05 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | @Sejanus - on consideration, I think I might understand saying a little better. The question kind of hamstrings one line of evidence (no offense intended, M.T.). In a courtroom, I would say that two of the best evidences you can produce from that era are a body and eyewitness testimony. Eyewitness testimony from antiquity will have to be written (I guess you could have a sculpture) and the writings of Matthew, Mark, Peter, John and, Paul, etc. have been excluded from this. And, if their accounts are right, we won't find the body for quite awhile - so that's off the table, too. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:56 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | @Sejanus - I would love to better understand your point. How would you give evidence that someone existed in antiquity? | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:55 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | In Josephus case, people I know personally who have put way more time into this than I have (including history majors, etc) consider his writings (among other) credible evidences for Jesus existence. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:51 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | eyewitness mention (also previously deleted): "5) I would also argue for looking at each of the books within the Bible (by various authors) that claim to be eyewitness accounts; they should be checked for origin, how they were published and passed on, for internal consistency AND against external sources; for example, there are good arguments for the quality of the references to non-religious historical events by the physician Luke who wrote the books commonly referred to as "Luke" and "Acts"" | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:49 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | I would put a historian from that era to the test of transmission (how did we get the text), internal consistency (does it fall apart under its own scrutiny) and external consistency (how does it compare to other sources of its time). I don't have the means to do that at an academic level, so I've read the work of others who have researched it with an eye to their approach, reasoning, perspective and with a preference for indications of a life of careful integrity. I also review my view against people I personally know who have done more homework and meet those same criteria. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:49 | comment | added | user288 | Nothing but speculations here. Far from evidence. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:34 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | Also, I don't mind your "eyewitness" mention from the bible, but this question specifically asks for who witnessed the eyewitnesses? Also, perhaps attatch a link or two to verify. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:27 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | Again, we are not arguing divinity here, but I will admit that your dead sea scrolls comment comes very close to an arguable point. I wish you had started with that. I have been editing. Thanks for keeping up. Cheers | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:25 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | Since you referenced it - here's the Dead Sea Scrolls point (which I removed as out-of-scope) "The Dead Sea Scrolls include (but are not limited to) texts which are also in the Bible; they have been dated before the Jesus and contain detailed predictions that match important aspects of the life and death of Jesus; the Bible claims that these detailed predictions which can be shown to be before Jesus' time are part of its self-authentication" | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:22 | history | edited | BrianCooksey | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
Removed out-of-scope comments
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| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:19 | comment | added | Monkey Tuesday | "Scientific evidences would be a little more difficult for any historical figure.For example using DNA or fingerprints to prove that someone existed in history is heading toward logically impossible.It seems you would need sample of biometric information from a person for comparison; but then you would, by definition, already know they existed."This seems to be a fairly justified complaint that it is difficult to verify claims made from that era.I agree.How,then do you justify quoting Flavius(37-100)as authoritative,given he was from essentially the same era?Where's the biometrics? | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:13 | comment | added | BrianCooksey | Either mis-read question (it's farily late) or edit occurred while responding. Removed out-of-scope points. | |
| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:12 | history | edited | BrianCooksey | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
Moved out-of-scope points to comment
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| S Apr 1, 2011 at 7:12 | history | suggested | badp | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
Formatting
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| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:11 | review | Suggested edits | |||
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| Apr 1, 2011 at 7:02 | history | edited | BrianCooksey | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
added 29 characters in body
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| Apr 1, 2011 at 6:55 | history | answered | BrianCooksey | CC BY-SA 2.5 |